Intellectual Dishonesty and HR 3200

Over the past few years I've learned a lot about logical fallacies and the use of intellectual dishonesty to push arguments for the existence of god or the truthfulness of religious texts. That knowledge has bled into every aspect of my life and I'm constantly hearing people use these tactics in day to day arguments, especially in politics.

I recently received an email listing lines in the bill HR 3200 (referred to as Obama's health care bill) and why what they are doing in the bill is horrible. I will provide the full text of the email at the end of this post. At first glance you can look at most of the statements and note the overt use of appeals to fear. So, I downloaded the bill and started going through each claim in the email and replying to the sender as to why the claim is false. I gave up after only a few lines because it became obvious how intellectually dishonest the author of the email was and I just didn't have that much time to refute each statement. I'm sure someone at snopes.com is going over each of these right now. You can download the bill here (pdf).

I will list a few of my rebuttals in this post. But my fear is that this email, or one like it, will go viral and people will ONLY read the claims and not the original text. The end result of this type of viral email is that Americans will fear something for all the wrong reasons. If your position is to be against the bill you should have concrete claims to back up your stance. This email is not concrete.

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
So what does page 22 really say? We have to back up to page 21 where the sections starts. It discusses how rates for premiums are calculated. In figuring out what to charge they will study various types of insurance and compare employers who self insure with employers who purchase. The intent, as stated in the bill, is to ensure that there is neither an incentive created for employers to change to self-insured or to change the risk for large group insurers.

(b) STUDY AND REPORTS.—
(1) STUDY.—The Commissioner, in coordination with the Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Secretary of Labor, shall conduct a study of the large group insured and self-insured employer health care markets. Such study shall examine the following:
(A) The types of employers by key characteristics, including size, that purchase insured products versus those that self-insure.
(B) The similarities and differences between typical insured and self-insured health plans.
(C) The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure by employer size.
(D) The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent.
(E) The extent to which rating rules are likely to cause adverse selection in the large group market or to encourage small and mid size employers to self-insure
(2) REPORTS.—Not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Commissioner shall submit to Congress and the applicable agencies a report on the study conducted under
23 paragraph (1). Such report shall include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers. Not later than 18 months after the first day of Y1, the Commissioner shall submit to Congress and the applicable agencies an updated report on such study, including updates on such recommendations.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get
Pure and simple, all plans have a list of covered and non-covered items. Mine does, yours does. If you think not then read you policy. But the email is obviously written to scare people who view the government as an evil empire. I could be wrong, but I think this bill only lays out what the minimum benefits shall be, not the total benefits. You can have insurance plans that cover more. There is nothing about this that says anyone must take the minimum, just what the minimums shall be.

SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
(a) ESTABLISHMENT.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
The person who wrote the email either a) doesn't understand English or b) is intentionally telling a lie. Go to page 8 for the glossary of terms:

(4) COST-SHARING.—The term ‘‘cost-sharing’’ includes deductibles, coinsurance, copayments, and similar charges but does not include premiums or any network payment differential for covered services or spending for non-covered services.

Now, look at what the section talks about that the email writer calls rationed health care:

(c) REQUIREMENTS RELATING TO COST-SHARING AND MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE.—
(1) NO COST-SHARING FOR PREVENTIVE SERVICES.—There shall be no cost-sharing under the essential benefits package for preventive items and services (as specified under the benefit standards), including well baby and well child care.
(2) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—
(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).
(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.
(C) USE OF COPAYMENTS.—In establishing cost-sharing levels for basic, enhanced, and premium plans under this subsection, the Secretary shall, to the maximum extent possible, use only copayments and not coinsurance.
(3) MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—The cost-sharing under the essential benefits package shall be designed to provide a level of coverage that is designed

Lines 4-16 as mentioned in the email define the LIMIT YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY EACH YEAR. This is just like my "out of pocket maximum" of $5000 I currently have.
This is not rationing your health care, this is protecting you from bad policies. And there is to be no cost for preventative items and well-baby visits.

The list goes on and on. They use references to illegal aliens and ACORN to appeal to the reader's hatred of those two things, even though the bill has nothing to do with them. Read the sections, if you disagree with me back it up with facts.

I've seen other news sites referring to sections of the bill as Nazi-like. For instance:
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

Well, go to that page and read. Again, you have to back up a bit. This section is defining, in essence, the rules regarding a living will: a patient telling the doctor if they want life saving actions taken or to let them die. My mother created one of these when she had knee surgery. This section simply states who is authorized to sign one of these.

(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that—
(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and
(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.

The key word in that quote is "individual." This is not the government saying who can "pull the plug."

There are many more that I'd like to rebut, but I just don't have the time.

So, regardless of where you stand on this issue you should at least take the time to read the bill. If you don't understand what they mean then look it up. Don't just rely on a viral email to make your life choices. I received an endless amount of these types of emails in the run-up to the election and I often wondered who really based their decisions on anonymous emails.

The text of the original email is as follows:

Subject:Ready for your Change?
Received this from a researcher on the Health Care issue. ...


This is a list of various items in the Health Care legislation. At the end of the list is the link to the Bill now in Congress. And this list is far from complete!!!

HEALTH CARE BILL:

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your Health Care Benefits for you. You have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - Health Care will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accts for elected funds transfer.

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions and Community Orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an Health Care Exchange to bring private Health Care plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs for private Health Care plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt Health Care plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans #AARP members = Your Health care WILL be rationed


PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monopoly

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST automatically enroll employees into public opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for Health Care for part time employees and their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyer with payroll of 400k & above who does not provide public opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Business with payroll between 251k & 400k who doesn't rovide pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill - Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans finan/personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill - Govt will reduce physician services 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesn't matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 - Govt sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgement, etc. Literally value of humans.


PG 265 Sec 1131 Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable re-admissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission Govt will penalize you.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors how much they can own..

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

ACLU Wins Lawsuit Against Ten Commandments

Oh, those godless heathens at the ACLU! How did this happen? They must have used some atheist magic potion to convince a judge to rule in their favor!

Kentucky counties fined $400,000 for posting Ten Commandments

Two southern Kentucky counties where officials posted copies of the Ten Commandments in courthouses have been ordered by a federal judge to pay more than $400,000 to the American Civil Liberties Union and citizens who successfully challenged the displays.

How can this be? Our laws are based on the ten commandments so why is this a problem??? I kid...I know they aren't. If they were then rape would be legal since it isn't prohibited by the commandments. *sheesh* Silly secularists and their humanitarian laws!

It's not clear from the article where the fight began. They mention it has been ongoing for 10 years (ooh, 10 years, 10 commandments, can I get some numerological analysis of that?) and was "fought all the way to the US supreme court".

The fine is supposed to pay the legal fees for the ACLU, but why would they need any since they are on Satan's payroll? Huh???

Three cheers for the heathens at the ACLU!

Obama Throws Us Another Bone

The unbelievers were mentioned again! OMG! This time it was during a prayer breakfast of all things!

Obama throws secular organizations a bone!

I never liked the idea of the federal government funding church groups. That was Bush's brainchild. Let's suck up to the religious right and get some votes by putting money in their pockets.

But what about secular groups who want to help out communities without indoctrinating them into a religion? NO SOUP FOR YOU!

But now Obama has widened the scope of the faith based support to include any organization that wants to help their communities.

This is his prayer...

I like this part:

The goal of this office will not be to favor one religious group over another – or even religious groups over secular groups. It will simply be to work on behalf of those organizations that want to work on behalf of our communities, and to do so without blurring the line that our founders wisely drew between church and state. This work is important, because whether it’s a secular group advising families facing foreclosure or faith-based groups providing job-training to those who need work, few are closer to what’s happening on our streets and in our neighborhoods than these organizations. People trust them. Communities rely on them. And we will help them.

Some of the talk seems a bit "pie in the sky" but at least he seems to be making an effort at removing the us versus them mentality that penetrates this country so much:

I raise this history because far too often, we have seen faith wielded as a tool to divide us from one another – as an excuse for prejudice and intolerance. Wars have been waged. Innocents have been slaughtered. For centuries, entire religions have been persecuted, all in the name of perceived righteousness.
There is no doubt that the very nature of faith means that some of our beliefs will never be the same. We read from different texts. We follow different edicts. We subscribe to different accounts of how we came to be here and where we’re going next – and some subscribe to no faith at all.

But this part I disagree with:

But no matter what we choose to believe, let us remember that there is no religion whose central tenet is hate. There is no God who condones taking the life of an innocent human being. This much we know.

Um...read the old testament! How many babies are slaughtered? So, yeah, he's kissing ass and ignoring the bullshit to try to form a happy consensus. Pie in the sky? Time will tell.

For those that think this whole thing should be disbanded, imagine if there were no faith base initiative created by Bush and Obama came along and wanted to form something similar but entirely secular. People would be screaming SOCIALIST! OMG! HE WANTS US TO BE COMMIE ZOMBIES! At least this way he can try to do some good at the community level by hijacking Bush's brainchild. And for that, I think he's a smart man.

Double standards (ah those SERBIAN thugs)

While the Fort Dix attackers are never explicitly called "Albanian" in the media, Miladin Kovacevic is constantly being labeled as a "SERB thug". I certainly agree that he is a thug, but I don't see why the fact that he happens to be a Serb is constantly being pushed on us by the media. Any agenda there? If he happened to be -- let's say -- Jewish, can you imagine them calling him a "Jew thug"? Certainly not. That's only reserved for those evil Serbs. The media are just making sure we remember that Serbs are dangerous.. and evil.

That's why when we think of a Serbian immigrant, we think of this:



But NOT this:


Or this:


Or this:


Well done, media, in creating an atmosphere in which even our names can be used as against us. Well done!

A Good Feeling...

What a great night for this country...

7 Years Later and There are Still Loopholes

7 years ago people were ranting and raving about how the 9/11 hijackers were able to stay here with expired student visas.

The Patriot Act was passed along, with FISA, and later the removal of habeas corpus, so we should be safe, right?

Well, read this: Obama's Aunt Living Here Illegally

How does someone who is living in state owned housing get to continue to stay there after a deportation order?

I use this as an example not because I have something against Obama or his family. I use it to show that despite all the freedom we have GIVEN UP over the last 7 years Bush is still FAILING at doing his job: Execution of the law!!!

Imagine if instead of a sweet little old lady she was instead an EVIL TERRORIST?? OMG!

I guess if you read DRUDGE and FAUX NEWS and listen to that moron HANNITY then your brain will be so full of mush that you will come to the conclusion that Obama's Auntie is a terrorist. After all, if all his friends are terrorists then all his family must be too.

The thing in that article that I think people will overlook is:

In Boston, Lydia Agro, communications director for the Housing Authority, said Onyango had been screened and approved for public housing as an "eligible non-citizen" when she moved in in 2003. She said the authority is not notified of deportation orders and did not know Onyango was related to Obama until two days ago.

Did ANYONE in the Bush administration do any brainstorming to think up all the ways they could make sure deportation orders were followed?

Is there ANY communication between the states and the federal government?

Perhaps the real problem isn't illegals overstaying their visas. Perhaps the real dangers have been taken care of. But this just seems too easy a loophole to close.

What do you think?

I Voted, did you???

VOTE!!!



VOTE!!!

You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket!

Sarah Palin and the Hunting Hypocrisy

First, my disclaimers:
*I'm not a hunter but I don't have much of a problem with other people hunting.
*I'm going to vote for Obama, so yes, I'm "in the tank" for him.

I see a certain hypocrisy in Palin's support of Alaska's predator-control program. You can read about it here as it relates to a political ad which decries the use of aerial hunting techniques.

Palin is a republican who thinks free market economies work best. Government, in her opinion, should not meddle in the affairs of business in order to create a magical community where money falls down from the pockets of rich people into the mouths of the poor. OK, my cynicism was laid on a bit thick there, sorry.

But when it comes to wildlife, she supports a government program that is designed solely for the benefit of the hunter in order to bring the number of fun-to-shoot animal populations up.

Lets call this Hunter Socialism.

But there is something sick about killing animals to allow other people to kill even more animals. I understand that Alaska is like a whole different country. I understand that living there might require survival instincts that a city boy like me doesn't have. So by all means, if a wolf is threatening you or your family (which I'm not sure they actually do) then do what you have to.

So, she is totally against the government trying to use its power and influence to pull people up by their bootstraps, but she's all for the government helping hunters have a better selection of animals to kill...by killing wolves.

I don't know if anyone else sees the hypocrisy in this, or even cares, but I thought I would at least bring it up for discussion.

<-- Gratuitous image of dead wolf.

Why Are So Many Americans Religious?

My earliest memories of school included learning about how the United States was founded. Different groups of people wanted to be able to worship how they pleased without the government getting into their business.

There was a lot of emphasis put on freedom of religion.

Nobody said to us "you should practice a religion" but it was implied. Why would thousands of people risk their lives and their futures for religion if religion wasn't worth it? I understand now that there were many other factors and freedom of religion wasn't in the original Constitution, but added later. Still, religion is embedded in our story.

What you don't hear about in school is how varied the beliefs of the founding fathers were. And fortunately, for all of us, they crafted the constitution in such a way that would keep any one of the religions of the time from being a part of the government.

It frustrates me to hear my own family members either say we are a "Christian Nation" or, even worse, actually wish we were a theocracy! My neighbor's car is covered with anti-religion bumper stickers including one I'd like to send to my relatives: If You Want a Country Rules By Religion Move To Iran!

Given that religious parents pass their religion down to their children, and we learn religion must be important because it was one of the reasons for founding this country, it makes sense that so many Americans are religious. As a co-worker pointed out to me Europe is mostly secular because they've gone through their enlightenment after almost 2000 years of rule by religion. And since many of the religious...um...kooks...left Europe and founded this country I understand why we are the way we are.

Answered Prayers and Cluster Bombs

I'm in a shitty mood.

Part of me wants to sit back and giggle at the thought of God's sick sense of humor. The kooks prayed for rain on Obama a few weeks ago. They wanted rain of biblical proportions. But in order to do that God had to create a hurricane. Alas, Gustav is too late for flooding Obama (and a bit too far away from Colorado, anyway). But at least the RNC convention will be disrupted. So, I should thank those who prayed for rain.

But I can't be THAT happy. I mean, there IS a hurricane tearing up the gulf states at the moment. People will probably get hurt (most likely one of those STUPID news reporters telling me how bad the wind is at the moment). But it looks like people did a good job of getting everyone evacuated from New Orleans. Lessons learned. I flipped over to Fox News just for shits and giggles and they were raving on and on about Bobby The Creationist Jindal. Reminding us that he was a republican and doing a great job. Good for him!

But then I see news like this: Georgia admits to dropping cluster bombs

Should I expect any better of a "friend" of the United States? We used them on Serbia so it makes sense for one of our allies to use them. But the US props this story up like we are back in the cold war and Bad Old Mother Russia is up to its old tricks again. So the only news reports we've seen for the last few weeks have been about bad old Russia attacking a sovereign nation. This is Kosovo in reverse. They are doing to Georgia what we did to Serbia, but they are bad and we were justified? I call bullshit.

And then I see news like this: US Agrees To Afghan Airstrike Probe

Doing a great job of reducing terrorism, eh? More like being pawns in someone's tribal wars. And our actions will do a great job of creating MORE terrorists.

But on the TV the news guy continues to get pummeled by Gustav. CNN has a guy on the ROOF of a hotel reporting on the wind. I wonder if he will show us how strong the gusts are by immitating what a human looks like when blown off a roof?

Damn...my pager just went off. Shitty mood likely to continue.

Jesus Even Died for our Environment!

GOP nutter Michele Bachmann says we don't need environmentalists saving the planet because Jesus already did that...

via TPM Election Central:

"[Pelosi] is committed to her global warming fanaticism to the point where she has said that she's just trying to save the planet," Bachmann told the right-wing news site OneNewsNow. "We all know that someone did that over 2,000 years ago, they saved the planet -- we didn't need Nancy Pelosi to do that."

EFFING KOOK!

Besides...he is said to have died for our SINS not for the air we breathe...

Wetback Says "Gracias a Dios"

I just got through watching Wetback: The Undocumented Documentary and I found myself shouting at the TV because throughout the documentary the people kept talking about how they were "thankful to God" or if this was "God's will" then they were OK with it.

A guy with NO FUCKING LEGS because the train he was trying to jump on ran him over said something like "If this is God's will then I will just have to live with it." Um...hello! You have NO FUCKING LEGS!

Was it GOD'S WILL to put him in poverty so bad that he decided to risk his life to leave his country and travel thousands of miles to try to live the "AMERICAN DREAM"????

What's that? Oh, He works in mysterious ways! Yeah, that's it.

The Abortion Jihad

Remember when terrorism in America meant an abortion clinic bombing, or an abortion clinic doctor being shot?

Back when these things were popular, in the 90's, I remember thinking we were headed toward an abortion jihad. A war between pro and anti abortion rights fighters. I envisioned abortion clinics being patrolled by Pro-Choice Paramilitary, waiting for an attack by the Pro-Life Liberation Army.



I wonder now how much the increased surveillance of American citizens produced by 9/11 resulted in a decrease in abortion clinic violence.

I've never been in the middle of something I felt so strongly about that I thought I needed to attack someone. But some of the people behind the violent anti-abortion movement feel just that way. Similarly, certain factions in the animal rights movement feel moved to violence or terrorism in an attempt to force their opposing view on others.

The Animal Liberation Front feels strongly about keeping animals from being tested on. So strongly that they have been implicated in violent acts. On the surface I don't see a difference between their tactics and the tactics of the anti-abortion crowd. The differences lie in the argument over whether the rights of animals are different than the rights of a human embryo or fetus.

Animals:
-We either have the right to do with animals as we please or we don't.
-Animals experience pain and suffering in a way that is equivalent to or greater than the way we feel pain.
-There is a metaphysical existence that animals experience which makes experimenting on them morally reprehensible or there is not.

Embryos:
-We either have the right to end a developing embryo's life or we don't.
-Embryos experience pain and suffering in a way that is equivalent to or greater than the way we feel pain.
-There is a metaphysical existence that embryos experience which makes ending their life morally reprehensible or there is not.

I'm not ready to offer my thoughts on all of these items. I'm throwing them out there to see what responses they might generate. Without pushing my own opinions on you I'm curious to first hear what others thing about the points I list above. Which side of those issues they are on.

Ben Stein Needs to STFU!!!

I've avoided talking about politics on here because politics had nothing to do with my doubts about God. But if there is a God would he please tell Ben Stein to STFU!!!!???!!!



Really, Ben? Obama at an arena reminds you of the Fuehrer? First, you belittle the holocaust by blaming it on Darwin, now this?

And Glen Beck could use a sock in his mouth as well. "OOoh!! Sounds like Mussolini!!"

Sweet Land of Liberty!

My only favorite atheist/neocon went and had himself waterboarded...

I imagine he still wants to wipe out the mid-east, but at least he understands that perhaps we've crossed the line...

Sure makes me proud of this country!